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April 11, 2006
Immigration, Workers and the Blogosphere
After checking out the blogosphere today, it occurs to me that blogs just might have a real impact on the current debate over US immigration policy. There is certainly no shortage of opinion on the thicket of issues raised by immigration reform.
One blogger, a teacher in California, writes:
Ask the kids, and you find out that it's not as simple as undocumented or not. Families do not come in single-flavor varieties. Mom has a visa, dad is undocumented and so is older brother, kid + younger brother were born here. Extrapolate from there.
Another important voice in the debate -- often muted -- is that of the employer. As The Wall Street Journal's Barry Newman points out:
Immigrants are protesting from Los Angeles to New York, lawmakers are haggling over new bills, and President Bush talks of bringing millions of workers out of the "shadows." The voice largely missing from the tense debate so far has been the bosses who hire illegal immigrants, leaving their lobbyists to speak for them.
Newman goes on to describe how the owner of a California landscape company, David Penry, is nervously going public on the need for immigration reform:
"Sure, employers are running scared," says Mr. Penry. "But a lot of Hispanics have helped my company become successful. It was time for an employer to stand up."
Not everyone thinks accommodating undocumented workers is the right approach. There are plenty of bloggers with firm opinions on this, such as Mainstream Iowan who says: "We support the prosecution of illegal immigrants."
Where do you stand on this issue? Leave a comment and let us know. And check out the range of opinions across the blogosphere:
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Posted by Ryck on April 11, 2006 at 01:24 PM in Current Events | Permalink | Comments (24) | TrackBack (0)
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Comments
The whole issue of immigration is one that is complex and involves many issues.
The simplistic solutions from the extreme right and left will never work; there are enough laws on the books right now to enable effective control of the problem the real issue is the will to enforce the laws already in place.
As I have stated in other forums one real way to effectively control the problem is to cut off the supply of illegal jobs, this would encourage people to get in line and immigrate legally.
The scumbags that want a cheap maid or gardener or picker of crops are the ones that perpetuate this inequitable system. They in turn need to be the ones to pay the price. Prosecute those low lifers and most of the problem will go away.
The heat and fire generated by this issue is, I believe hiding the true tragedy of this issue that is the human toll that the whole thing is generating, from the people who loose their lives crossing the borders, to those that are persecuted once they get here to those that are suffering in sub standard conditions of work. Additionally at the other end the costs to the whole community in providing health care, education and law enforcement, these are cost borne by us all.
Prosecute the employers first, stop people from risking their lives crossing and make available a workable immigration system that is the way to end this whole mess.
In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: Swagy | Apr 11, 2006 2:04:37 PM
I don't think prosecuting employers and stopping people from crossing is going fix any "mess". The reason why people come here is because the quality of life in so many other countries is deteriorating, and that is a direct effect of foreign policy that is set out only to benefit the stronger country, in this case, the U.S. These countries do not lack the strength in their workforce or the inability to be great. They lack the ability to defend themselves from foreign hands reaching into their lands, taking over their resources which then takes away the jobs of the natives. What are they to do but to seek jobs somewhere else?
I think it's a slap in the face for this administration and opponents to say that legalizing 12 million people will hurt the U.S. job market when they have been the ones to take away the jobs of immigrants, all over the world in their own native lands.
Posted by: Andrea | Apr 11, 2006 5:07:21 PM
immigrants?? hmmm let me ask my grandma what she thinks. Maybe, ask YOURS ?
Posted by: midwestblues | Apr 11, 2006 10:28:04 PM
Dear sir can u plz assist me by telling me few names and email id of consultants who help professionals to go abroad .
As i am a tourism professional with 1 year experience and holding post graduate diploma in travel and tourism .
so if tht possible can you help me.
plz guide me
thx
Posted by: amit | Apr 12, 2006 4:25:12 AM
MidwestBlues: As a matter of fact, I have the record of my grandparents immigration... we found it on the Ellis Island website. So yes, I am pro immigration... but LEGAL immigration.
Let me share with you what I described to my 10 year old son when he asked about this issue. If someone knocks on my door, I'll ask who they are before I decide to let them in. This he understood completely.
But if anyone -ANYONE- climbed in through a window, I would shove them out.
Any questions?
#1 Secure the borders... both north and south, and beef up the ports. End the supply.
#2 Change the legal immigration laws: 6-10 years to get legal is too long.
#3 Clamp down on the law breakers in this country: that is the employers as well as employees.
Posted by: Charlie on the Pennsylvania Turnpike | Apr 20, 2006 8:55:20 AM
Andrea's comment about U.S. foreign policy being responsible for bad conditions in other countries and hence illegal immigration could be the most stupid idea I have ever heard. It's like blaming Bush for the Hurricanes.
Posted by: Russell | Apr 26, 2006 8:36:13 AM
Here is a new thought. Why don't we open the borders and let people who want to work come compete for the work, without having to risk their lives coming over the border like the Berlin Wall.
Isn't that what America use to be about. Competing to have the Best Product, be the Best Worker, taking pride in what one does.
There is plenty in the world for everyone but I believe you need to give in order to get.
Posted by: Georgia | Apr 26, 2006 9:02:33 AM
If Bush wants to make it very simple for the hispanic immigrants to become citzens of this country, why not make it as easy for all the legal permanent residents, who work hard, pay taxes and speak english, it is a shame when I who am a fifth generation AMERICAN can not get a job because I do not speak spanish, When I did get a job, part of the plant went down to Mexico and the people who worked in those Department lost jobs.
The reason is because the Mexicans will work for $2.50. This hurts our economy. I also am ashamed of our government for not taking care of its citizens as well as they take care of the illegal immigrants. I am witness to the mess, I worked in food retail and people who will not speak english, had big bucks in food stamps, they also get free medical,if they would sell the 50 gold chains they have on and not buy designer clothes, not to mention the brand new Cadillac SUV, Then maybe our welfare system would work for the people who really need it. I feel Our President and mexico's President are way to chummy for OUR countries good. Do you really think it was a coincidence, a major influx of illeagals came when 9/11 occured, we were not looking.
Posted by: pam | Apr 26, 2006 4:20:22 PM
The Problem is not hispanics. The problem is politicians disloyal to the constitution.
2/3 of all Hispanics vote Republican. Half live in Florida. The Newly naturalized are perhaps the largest block of active voters with the exception of, maybe, retirees. In 2004 USCIS (formerly INS), in a consistently upward trend, naturalized close to 500,000 citizens, about half of them Hispanic.
DO THE MATH CHECK THE ELECTION RESULTS.
Conservative Protestant Christians were the deciding factor in Bush's election(s)
not Hispanics!
Republican administrations have been friendly to and allowed illegal hispanic immigration (in contrast to the experiences of Haitians or Chinese for example) by not funding enforcement and creating ginormous loopholes through the asylum program, the L-1 visa program (where everyone had 10 million in foreign sales at their parent company whose records were not cross checked by INS--right), and other programs. Republicans have externalized the public cost of infrastruture such as schools, prisons, and healthcare away from their costituencies (businesses that use illegal quasi-slave labor) and onto the backs of the average american taxpayor and overwhelmed local communities. Republicans don't even budget funds to deport convicted illegal felons. Republicans have a great system: convict a fellon who is an illegal alien, don't deport them and spend $30,000 a year to house them in a prison. Brilliant!
Don't forget, crack cocaine and heroin don't grow in the US!
Check the census figures between 1980 and 2000 for places like Miami and Los Angeles. You will find that Hispanic immigrants not only outnumbered earlier residents, but that the earlier residents are gone. They can be classified as "internally displaced refugees." These areas are nearly completely ethnically cleansed of Americans. This is not just white flight ('those' people were gone by 1985). When your teenager goes to the local burger flipping joint or the mall to find that first job and they are told, "sorry if you don't speak spanish, you can't work here, main," and the store manager laughs at him, even the most liberal person is going to rethink their position, especially when they are the target of hispanic's racism targeted at 'Americanos'. The peopele who live in places like miami now are more loyal to foreign governments than the US, which they claim to love (to make money in). I guess thats why the 911 terrorists had such a good time in the Hospitality of Hispanic dominated Miami before they blew up the trade center towers.
Solution: Enforce existing immigration laws without regard to race, religion, gender, national origin, or political affiliation.
Before Republicans go fixing the system they broke by not budgeting for the enforcement of our laws (and yes, its republicans who have run congress and held the purse strings of government for over a decade)
Create real disincentives for employers of illegal aliens like jail time and fines that the payment of would not be preferable to employing the approximately 5.5% or 6 million plus (depending on how you count them) US Citizens without employment.
Create real disincentives for continued illegal immigration (deportation and permanent prohibition of legal status). For those already illegally here, make them apply for legal status and wait in line behind all the other legal immigrants who have been waiting in line (many law abiding naturalized citizens and Lawful residents have been waiting as long as 20 years to bring their families here lawfully because the system is jamed with illegal aliens claiming benefits they have no right to)
Do we want an entire new class of Americans whose first brush with our system and institutions was scaming it? What kind of American Character will that build? A nation of scar faced Tony Montanas?
Protestant Christians were the deciding vote in Bush's election(s), and will continue to be the decisive factor in US electoral politics, unless, they too are displaced by foreigners.
ON AMNESTY: for all those illegal aliens with children born in the US. The government has always been kind to them. If they have a spouce or child who is a US citizen, and the illegal alien has been here 10 years, they become Lawfull residents and five years later can become a citizen...There's the real Humanitarian Amnesty ALREADY ON THE BOOKS!
Enforce the Laws we have and secure the Boarder, Airports, and Seaports.
Posted by: Jeff | Apr 26, 2006 8:27:59 PM
Jeff, thank GOD not every body thinks like you. I do believe immigration laws should be updated but to give these people some hard worked benefits. THEY DESERVE IT. I have seen how many of them bust their @$$ to have a better life not for them but their famlies who are left behind.
Why don't you complain about the millions of "True Americans" who have never worked in their damn life and have lived their whole lives out of our tax money, I can guarantee you you will find more of them that immigrants.
Right now I barely have any words that can express how I feel about this country and how people treat everyone else who do not have our privaleges like dirt. I am so ashamed to even serve this country as an american, Latin woman and soldier, it is a dishonor to defend thoughtless people as yourself because I defend Justice and Freedom for all not just americans.
Another thing we are ALL AMERICANS; the only diffance is that some are North Americans, South Americans, Native Americans and other come from the Carribean.
QUE VIVA NUESTRAS CULTURAS NUESTRA RAZA NUESTRO LENGUAGE
Posted by: mulatita | Apr 28, 2006 8:58:26 AM
To those of you who say immigrants take away jobs from Americans... bull! Address the politicians who have allowed so many US companies to go overseas and provide jobs so that they can pay for cheap labor and wreak horrendous profits (not to mention paying their own outrageous salaries)!! Also, most Americans don't want and can't last in hard labor, manual back-breaking jobs that are currently held by immigrants. And last but not least, the majority of IMMIGRANTS ARE NOT ON WELFARE, so the US does NOT sustain them.
Posted by: Toni | Apr 28, 2006 10:19:27 AM
It saddens me that Americans that live here complain about the illegals especially in Mamaroneck, and that they are taking away jobs from who may I ask, when so called Americans are too proud to do menial jobs, but then they hire them to do their landscaping at such low wages. There are too many AMERICANS that have sucked out the welfare system and don't need it, they rather lay in bed collect welfare as though someone owes them something and never worked a day in their life. Yes I am an Immigrant but an American Citizen, my parents worked their butts off in factories and body shop and never went on welfare..with minimum wage they sacrificed to send us to private school (catholic) and it sickens me when I see that Minorities drop out of high school, WHY?, when the more education one has the better opportunities are out there. I am in school once again about to acquire a Master and I am hispanic and have never given up on the American dream yes I have been discriminated against but feel that no one is better than me because of the color of their skin or lack there of..bottom line we all have blood running through our veins and a heart that beats so wake up America, because Hispanics/Latinos are not going to be the Minority but the Majority haven't you noticed that everyone keeps mentioning bilinguals wanted..It's sad that hispanics born her aren't teaching their kids Spanish when they you should...
Posted by: Angie | Apr 28, 2006 10:36:55 AM
My name is Linda and I am 12 years old. I have 2 little brothers and My mom is illegal imigrant. We are from el Salvador and we did not had money for food. She is now worryed pollice come to her job to take her back to el Salvador. She is happy here becaus she has money for me and my brothers. I wish everywhere was like United States to stay in El Salvador and be happy.
Posted by: linda | Apr 28, 2006 10:59:03 AM
Just remember what goes around comes around and God will be the judge of us ALL.
Posted by: Edy | Apr 30, 2006 11:43:21 AM
I am an African American female living who raised in South Bay CA and grew up in Catholic school. In the early late 70's my neighborhood was mixed with everything and I always enjoyed it!! It was great all the kids black, mexican, filipino, samoa, and white!! We all played together and got along.... Unfortunately society with all these Socially an politically motivated schemes ruin that harmony!!
I have no problem with anyone because of Race or place of National origin... How can I ?? As a Black woman ?? We were immigrants too... but the difference is we brought here by force and then stuck... We can run back to Mexico everytime there is a problem or change our minds... The tribes were purposely split and mixed up so that we "N****" or "Mai***e's" couldn't leave.
Now as a African American, where can I go? Can I go to Mexico and own land ?? No... Can I make a decent living there If I don't speak Spanish ?? He****l no!! I am never going to get my 50 acres and a Mule that the American Gov't promised me and get tired of seeing other Immigrants by choice and other groups talk about how much they have suffered... Yes the immigrants do work for lil pay... work that the African slaves and freed Blacks were forced to do to Eat. So to say that no one would do the jobs is not really true.. To say that "we" have paid over 500 yrs of slavery DUES to this Country is an UNDERSTATEMENT !! So do I think the Immigrants Mexican or other should be deported if they are already here and family ?? Absolutely NOT !! I am a HUMAN being First !! But do I feel that is a D***M shame that with a college education I get turned away w/o an interview because I am not Bilingual in AMERICA ?? He***l YES !! It is Ridiculous !!
I think the EMPLOYERS should be penalized and the Immigrants should pay a fee to
come here and must be forced to learn English and that they should FORFEIT their citizenship in Mexico or their homeland. I also feel that they should not be given Medical benefits, welfare, safety net, and or CAPI( a welfare benefit for immigrants), and since you can buy a house in Mexico but can never own the land unless you are a Mexican citizen, I don't think they should be allowed to buy homes here with our governments GRANTS, unless they become citizens and FORFEIT their past citizenship. If they commit any crime that are a felony,they should be deported! If the kids enter our OVERCROWdED SCHOOLS they should be forced to learn english within a year along with their parents and siblings !!
Posted by: Failry_liberal_black Woman | May 6, 2006 2:31:33 AM
In the article about immigration:
Immigrants comprise more than 20 percent of residential job site workers, says National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) immigration policy lobbyist Jenna Hamilton. Without them, "residential construction would grind to a halt," she says.
"Today, builders have problems finding employees. Americans aren't raising their kids to be roofers ... ."
The last sentence is rather instructive. My guess is the Jenna Hamilton has not been a roofer or she would not be making such an inane statement.
I have done enough tax returns of roofers and ex-roofers to know that the occupation is not one that will carry them to age 65 Those that are roofers are looking to leave it and those that were roofers are glad that they were done with doing that. It is not an occupation that will provide for a comfortable retirement. It is one of the most hazardous occupations there are.
The other unstated complaint that is in the article is that employers can't find enough qualified help. However when you investigate this further, one of the qualifications is for people to accept compensation that is inadequate for the effort/risks involved as compared to alternatives. Hence you have employers lobbying to loosen immigration quotas etc.
Let there be no mistake, when the reward/risk ratio is sufficient, employers will find all the employees they need.
Posted by: Len | May 16, 2006 10:07:24 AM
I find the whole argument that “we are a Nation of immigrants” to actually be funny. Or course we are. The last wave of immigrants literally stole the whole thing from the indigenous people that were here. So, does anyone really believe that the next wave is not out for themselves and only themselves?
I was raised in Los Angeles and my community went from not locking your doors to bolting them and having a loaded shotgun by your bedside. Mexico is a lawless third-world cesspool where drugs, corruption, prostitution and murder are all viable ways of “getting ahead”.
I moved away from L.A. Now the same influx of illegals is coming and up goes the graffiti, the crime rate and down goes the wages. I have been laid-off twice due to Affirmative Action statues. Both companies held Federal contracts and they MUST have a certain percentage of “minorities”. (What a non-sequitur that has become.) So I was axed, and they stayed.
I have applied for many jobs that us “Gringos’ won’t take. Fast-food, low-paying teller positions at banks, temp jobs. Well, even with my college degree I’m passed over because straight to my face I’m told: “Sorry, you don’t speak Spanish.” Or could it be Mexican’s discriminating against me? I would be the only white guy in the place and they don’t make me feel welcome.
I blame the Mexican Government. However the citizens need to stop looking North for a better life step up to the plate and help fix their own Country. I view every illegal immigrant as a coward. Fight for your own Country, stop waving your flag in mine.
Goggle “Programs for minorities”. Look at all the Federal dollars available for immigrants. Jeez, I would want in on it too. A set of easy-to-obtain fake documentation and welcome to heaven. All paid by my taxes and the five generations of my family’s taxes.
Well I better get out there and pound the pavement. I’m sure I will find employment because us white guys have all the breaks.
Yeah, sure.
Posted by: Jim | May 16, 2006 1:25:36 PM
Mexican Tourism Ad
One thing I really can't believe is this Mexican Tourism ad from Jones American Comedy Network. "Experience Mexico the way they experience the USA". They have it in their podcast too.
Posted by: Steve Waikley | May 23, 2006 8:56:31 PM
two interesting articles on immigration from a uk based indian workers paper
http://www.lalkar.org/issues/contents/mar2006/immigration.php
http://www.lalkar.org/issues/contents/may2006/immigration.php
enjoy!
Posted by: Ranjeet | Jun 13, 2006 7:21:47 AM
I agree with Pam and Edy. I do not care what it takes. I would like to see ALL illegal immigrants removed from the United States at any cost, even higher taxes. They do not want to learn English nor give up their citizenship. They usually do not pay taxes. They constantly receive free medical care and government money for various reasons and on and on. Grafitti has gone up in this area tenfold. Seemingly mostly criminals have migrated here. The economy needs correcting anyway. Sending them home will help to reopen jobs to Americans without having to learn their language. Also, change the law to where simply giving birth to a child entitles illegals to stay and automatic citizenship to the child. Illegal immigrants will never receive any sympathy from me. I will gladly help the government to return them home.
Posted by: Sharon | Jul 18, 2006 5:41:19 PM
Hi my name is xochilt and i am thirteen years old.
Im really confused about this whole thing because I dont think its fair to shut people out of a country when you dont even understand where their coming from and just asume there going to take our jobs and steal medical stuff. they work very hard and take the bad jobs no one wants. they come from a hard life and im sure if you went over a lived through what they have you wouldnt be such a dumbass. I have a republican friend and she says that we should kick all the immigrants out because they didnt help build our country. i was like what the heck is she talking about?!
Didnt we drag thousands of slaves over here to build all our stuff for us i mean, i though that they brought people to build our railroads. bush can just go die. I know I dont know alot about immigration, but i know i love my family and i know that this world is getting so messed up. someone has to do something before its to late. im going to try my best.
Posted by: angie | Nov 5, 2006 1:25:24 PM
my friend says she doesnt care about immigrants cuz shes from here.uhhh... hello your white. you cant be originally from here unless you native american, if you look back, your ancestors are immigants so SHUT UP!
Posted by: xochilt | Nov 5, 2006 1:32:52 PM
Illegal Immigration Turning Calif. Into ‘Apartheid State,’ Expert Warns
By Steve Brown
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
August 20, 2003
(CNSNews.com) - California may evolve into an “apartheid state” unless major changes are made in immigration policy, a panel of immigration experts warned Tuesday.
The problems are fueled primarily by illegal immigration to California, resulting in a growing segment of the population that pays a disproportionately low percentage in taxes; uses a similarly disproportionate amount of welfare services; and increasingly lives in virtually segregated communities while working in more affluent areas of the state, the panelists said.
California State University, Fresno professor Victor Davis Hanson, a member of the panel hosted by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) in Washington, D.C., described some central California cities that are composed entirely of recent Mexican immigrants and their families, many of whom live in “a shadow community” because of their illegal status.
“Where I live, there are towns such as Orange Cove, Mendota or Parlier, Calif., which are 100 percent composed of either people who are the first generation from Mexico and are illegal aliens, or second generation where third- and fourth-generation Mexican citizens have left,” said Hanson, author of the recently published book Mexifornia: A State of Becoming.
“These are like test tube cases of what not to do,” said Hanson. “You reject American integration and diversity, and you allow apartheid societies of people who basically serve more affluent people in a shadow community without legality.”
Hanson predicted the issue of illegal immigration from Mexico will be raised either in the current California recall campaign or in the 2004 presidential election, saying he expects the debate will be “demagogued in a way that’s going to be quite infamous before the actual elections come around.”
Part of the reason the issue of illegal immigration is such a highly charged political issue is because relatively few Americans have first-hand experience with it, according to San Diego Union-Tribune columnist Joseph Perkins, who was also on the panel.
Another facet of the debate centers on the supply of cheap labor, which favors an “open-border” mindset in some business quarters.
“Most of these folks have not actually seen the consequences of that policy,” said Perkins. “The fact is California, the nation’s most populous state, has been transformed by immigration, particularly illegal immigration.”
According to Perkins, who opposes open-border policies after having supported them as an editorial writer for the Wall Street Journal. “If my friends in New York who continue to advocate open borders were to have 100,000 Chinese immigrants heading into New York harbor year by year and suddenly becoming part of New York State’s population… then they might feel differently.”
Steve Camarota, director of research for the CIS, dismissed many of the economic theories used to support an open-border policy.
While some argue that Mexican immigration - legal or otherwise - is crucial to the economy, Camarota introduced statistical data showing that Mexican immigrants comprise nearly one-third of California’s population but account for approximately 3 percent of the state’s economic output.
According to Camarota, California’s estimated population of more than 35.5 million people includes some 10 million Mexicans, 70 percent of who are in the state illegally and 65 percent of who have less than a high school education.
“The idea that Mexican immigration is vital to the U.S. economy is simply false,” Camarota said.
Next, Camarota noted that Mexican immigrants pay significantly less in taxes compared with native Californians but use disproportionately more welfare benefits than those born in the state.
Camarota’s data showed that the average taxes paid by Mexican immigrants in California amount to about $1,535 per year, while native-born Californians pay $5,600 in taxes.
While Mexican immigrants pay one-third the taxes of native Californians on average, they also consume roughly three times more welfare, Camarota said.
The CIS data showed that 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used “major welfare programs” like Medicaid and food stamps, while those same welfare programs were used by only 14.2 percent of native Californians.
“There’s a very big difference between what Mexican immigrants are supposed to pay in taxes and what natives are supposed to pay,” said Camarota. “This fact, coupled with their extremely high use of public services, means that there’s a very high cost for cheap labor.”
While the panelists illustrated the encroaching problems and their causes, few detailed solutions were offered.
“What should we do? I think most people support immigration, we want immigration, and it always enriches the culture. But we want it in California under legal auspices,” said Hanson.
Hanson said it would require “legal, measured immigration.” However, he emphasized that “something” must be done to protect the borders
Posted by: ames Tiedeman | Nov 19, 2006 9:04:23 PM
The editors of the technology and pop culture blog took down the comment option about two years ago. Back then, they wanted to put an end to abusive comments, personal attacks on the Boing Boing crew and some spam. Today, their reason for not bringing it back is simpler: an explosion in junk comment posts on blogs.
Posted by: Xibit | Nov 22, 2006 10:37:59 AM
